[resolved] New user : some dumb questions

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TheSecretBeerDrinker
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Joined: 11 Jul 2015 19:38

[resolved] New user : some dumb questions

Postby TheSecretBeerDrinker » 11 Jul 2015 19:56

(Sorry for my english)

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the SolydXK and Debian's world : I come from the last release of Kubuntu but the system's global instability and the various bugs and restrictions of KDE5 incitated me to switch to another Linux distribution, and SolydXK was strongly recommended to me. But some things are stopping me :

1. Is the 201506 version the "stable" one or the "testing" ?

2. I am a huge fan of Darktable but the version in the repository seems old (1.4 instead 1.6), is there any ways to update my favorite programs like Darktable, Amarok, Libreoffice without waiting years ? Something like a kind of compatibility with Ubuntu's PPA... ?

3. The Linux kernel seems pretty old too (3.16), is there any way to update it ? Same thing for Intel's drivers...

Then, bravo for this remarkably stable and light distribution, it's really faster than Kubuntu !

kurotsugi
Posts: 2267
Joined: 09 Jan 2014 00:17

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby kurotsugi » 11 Jul 2015 22:38

1. it's the stable ones. the testing one is labelled as enthusiast edition.
2. debian, in general, not compatible with ubuntu's ppa. some ppa works on debian, some other need "tricks" to make it work, but most of them potentially could broke your system.
3. yes it is. you can grab the latest kernel from backport repo but unfortunately 3.16 is the latest stable kernel in debian realm so it will take times until the new kernel arrives.

the only save method (without DIY build) to get new softwares on debian stable is using backport repo. however, backport only include some popular softwares. AFAIK newest kernel and LO is available on backport but I'm not sure with darktable.

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wildman
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Location: Kentucky, USA

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby wildman » 12 Jul 2015 04:41

Darktable 1.6.6 is available from the backports repo.

Code: Select all

~$ apt policy darktable
darktable:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.4.2-1+b3
  Version table:
     1.6.6-1~bpo8+1 0
        100 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie-backports/main amd64 Packages
     1.4.2-1+b3 0
        500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
Wildman
May the Source be with you.

TheSecretBeerDrinker
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Jul 2015 19:38

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby TheSecretBeerDrinker » 12 Jul 2015 09:08

wildman wrote:Darktable 1.6.6 is available from the backports repo.

Code: Select all

~$ apt policy darktable
darktable:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 1.4.2-1+b3
  Version table:
     1.6.6-1~bpo8+1 0
        100 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie-backports/main amd64 Packages
     1.4.2-1+b3 0
        500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
Thanks a lot for your answer.
I tried to add the backport repository to my sources.list : deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main
But with sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get dist-upgrade don't mention any new update... what did I do wrong ? :/

Sorry for all these idiot question it's been a long time I used these things for the last time :)

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just
Posts: 297
Joined: 07 Nov 2013 08:06
Location: Rovaniemi, Finland

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby just » 12 Jul 2015 09:56

A quote from Debian Backports: Instructions article:
Install a package from backports

All backports are deactivated by default (i.e. the packages are pinned to 100 by using ButAutomaticUpgrades: yes in the Release files. If you want to install something from backports run:

Code: Select all

apt-get -t jessie-backports install "package"
of course you can use aptitude as well:

Code: Select all

aptitude -t jessie-backports install "package"

TheSecretBeerDrinker
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Jul 2015 19:38

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby TheSecretBeerDrinker » 12 Jul 2015 09:58

just wrote:A quote from Debian Backports: Instructions article:
Install a package from backports

All backports are deactivated by default (i.e. the packages are pinned to 100 by using ButAutomaticUpgrades: yes in the Release files. If you want to install something from backports run:

Code: Select all

apt-get -t jessie-backports install "package"
of course you can use aptitude as well:

Code: Select all

aptitude -t jessie-backports install "package"
Oh god I didn't read BY DEFAULT I'm sorry I was searching for a possibility to desactivate the PPA after the installation of darktable... thank you for your patience :)

kurotsugi
Posts: 2267
Joined: 09 Jan 2014 00:17

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby kurotsugi » 12 Jul 2015 11:04

yes...backport is deactivated until you install something from them. after that you'll got updates regularly from backport like usual. note that the updates is specifically for the package installed from backport. if you want to add more packages you need to do it manually.

TheSecretBeerDrinker
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Jul 2015 19:38

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby TheSecretBeerDrinker » 12 Jul 2015 22:04

kurotsugi wrote:yes...backport is deactivated until you install something from them. after that you'll got updates regularly from backport like usual. note that the updates is specifically for the package installed from backport. if you want to add more packages you need to do it manually.
Thanks a lot. I really like this update's mentality.
A last question, if I want to update my kernel, what package do I have to install ? I don't find anything newer than 3.16...

kurotsugi
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Joined: 09 Jan 2014 00:17

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby kurotsugi » 13 Jul 2015 04:37

the 3.16 is the latest stable series on debian. when new kernel arrives on testing it will also backported into stable. the packages is linux-image-amd64 and linux-headers-amd64.

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Zill
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Location: Lincolnshire, UK

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby Zill » 13 Jul 2015 11:19

TheSecretBeerDrinker wrote: ... A last question, if I want to update my kernel, what package do I have to install ? I don't find anything newer than 3.16...
As you have posted this in the "Newbie Questions" section of the forum I should really ask the question why do you "want to update my kernel"? If your current kernel works properly with the hardware on your SolydXK system then there is no point in updating it unless you are paranoid about having the latest security patches. Because the kernel is so integral to the reliable operation of your system, this is really a part you should not upgrade on a whim as you may find that things that previously worked will no longer work! Kernels are a good example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!".

I see in your first post that "I come from the last release of Kubuntu but the system's global instability and the various bugs and restrictions of KDE5 incitated me to switch to another Linux distribution". Maybe Kubuntu wouldn't have seemed quite so unstable if it wasn't tinkered with so much... ;-)

TheSecretBeerDrinker
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Jul 2015 19:38

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby TheSecretBeerDrinker » 13 Jul 2015 11:42

Zill wrote:
TheSecretBeerDrinker wrote: ... A last question, if I want to update my kernel, what package do I have to install ? I don't find anything newer than 3.16...
As you have posted this in the "Newbie Questions" section of the forum I should really ask the question why do you "want to update my kernel"? If your current kernel works properly with the hardware on your SolydXK system then there is no point in updating it unless you are paranoid about having the latest security patches. Because the kernel is so integral to the reliable operation of your system, this is really a part you should not upgrade on a whim as you may find that things that previously worked will no longer work! Kernels are a good example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!".

I see in your first post that "I come from the last release of Kubuntu but the system's global instability and the various bugs and restrictions of KDE5 incitated me to switch to another Linux distribution". Maybe Kubuntu wouldn't have seemed quite so unstable if it wasn't tinkered with so much... ;-)
Well that's a good question I often asked to myself. I thought that newer kernels have newer (so theorically better) driver especially for my Intel's graphic card, but also security fixes. Here with 3.16 instead of 4.x I suppose my system is less performant and less secure than with newer kernel... ? (but is it real ?)

So maybe can I install kernels I found here : http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ ?

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just
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Location: Rovaniemi, Finland

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby just » 13 Jul 2015 12:09

TheSecretBeerDrinker wrote:...Here with 3.16 instead of 4.x I suppose my system is less performant and less secure than with newer kernel?.. (but is it real ?)
No, it is not.

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Zill
Posts: 1850
Joined: 13 Aug 2013 14:28
Location: Lincolnshire, UK

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby Zill » 13 Jul 2015 13:34

TheSecretBeerDrinker: The default kernel (and other packages) for your chosen Debian Stable release is the best compromise of performance and stability. If you deviate from these packages, such as by installing a later kernel or packages from another release (including backports), then the stability of the system could be degraded.

It's your system and so you are free to do as you wish. However, the less "stock" your system is, the more chance there is that you will have problems maintaining it.
So maybe can I install kernels I found here : http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ ?
PPAs are for Ubuntu. Please remember that Debian is not Ubuntu! Do not try to install any Ubuntu packages unless you really know how to fix a broken system!

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ilu
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Joined: 09 Oct 2013 12:45

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby ilu » 13 Jul 2015 14:28

If you really need a newer kernel you should consider to follow testing (called "enthusiast edition" here) or even sid.

To explain a bit more what was already said:
Really needing a newer kernel is rarely the case. Unlike in the M$ world (and not even there) newest is not always best.
I thought that newer kernels have newer (so theorically better) driver especially for my Intel's graphic card, but also security fixes. Here with 3.16 instead of 4.x I suppose my system is less performant and less secure than with newer kernel... ? (but is it real ?)
No. Really NO. The "old" stable system reguarly gets security updates, so no need to worry. A new kernel won't make your system "better" in any way. And if your graphics driver works, why get a newer one? You are probably not into gaming if you use Intel graphics.
I know your worries because I was too educated in thinking the M$ way. Forget about the latest and greatest. This is only important if you definitely know that you need a certain feature that was implemented in a newer version, which is rarely the case.
Just start using your system and ask here for help if you encounter specific problems. And the more "standard" your system is, the easier you will find help.

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odo5435
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Location: Western Australia

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby odo5435 » 13 Jul 2015 16:44

^^ ^^
There are wise words in both of the above posts. As a M$ to Linux refugee since 2009 and Solyd for the last two years, my experience has been the same.

Through unusual circumstances, SolydK has not been quite working properly on my main machine for a couple of months. To get work done, I'm relying on an ancient (2012!!!) version of another distro. Yeah sure, the other distro stopped any support about a year ago and I'm too lazy to upgrade to their current version but, apart from that, everything still works. OK, Flash is dysfunctional which makes enjoying YouTube a tad difficult (doesn't stop me using it though) but that doesn't interfere with completing a day's work.

As an aside, I installed a 2009 version of LinuxMint on my parents computer in, err, let me think, probably around 2009, and they are still quite happily off-line and playing Mahjong, FreeCell, Solitaire, etc. There's probably better, graphically improved games versions around but the parents don't know or care about that and, frankly, I haven't the patience to show them otherwise.

I will get SolydK (or X) working on my desktop again 'cos it's simply a better OS for me. I miss it and am looking forward to seeing which improvements (= newer software versions), if any, will get me through the day faster. However, that is not vital for me to complete what needs to be done today.

It's nice to be using the latest and greatest but If your system works, it works. Let it be. Unless you have the time, the patience and the smarts to be constantly fiddling with your OS, leave well enough alone. Let others, far more experienced and wiser in the ways of computerspeak, have the headaches and heartache.

"I always wondered why somebody doesn't do something about that. Then I realized I was somebody."
Lily Tomlin

TheSecretBeerDrinker
Posts: 6
Joined: 11 Jul 2015 19:38

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby TheSecretBeerDrinker » 13 Jul 2015 19:42

Thanks a lot for all these answers. I now understand better the spirit of Debian and I think it's a good mentality. For the moment SolydK works like a charm on my computer, I'll probably keep it if I don't see any bugs coming. Thank you all and thanks to the devs for this great OS :)

kurotsugi
Posts: 2267
Joined: 09 Jan 2014 00:17

Re: [resolved] New user : some dumb questions

Postby kurotsugi » 13 Jul 2015 21:03

I thought that newer kernels have newer (so theorically better) driver especially for my Intel's graphic card, but also security fixes. Here with 3.16 instead of 4.x I suppose my system is less performant and less secure than with newer kernel... ? (but is it real ?)
without backport you'll receive maintenance update for 3.16 series which contain bug fixes and security fixes but the system performance will same. if you want to get 4.x series you can get it from backport but you need to wait until it arrives on backport. unfortunately you won't get any updates for the graphic driver. it means that you'll gain little performance from the newer kernel but probably not on graphical side.
So maybe can I install kernels I found here : http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/ ?
it definetely a recipe for disaster. in ubuntu you use ppa to get newest kernel but in debian we use backport. the risk of using backport on debian is more or less similar with PPA on ubuntu. I'd say there's no risk of installing newest kernel at all from backport since your old kernel won't get removed. if the kernel from backport didn't work you can revert back to the old kernel anytime.

anyway, since you have been happily using kubuntu I think you'll enjoy to follow debian testing instead of stable one. you might hear that debian testing is less stable than debian stable but in reality it's quite stable and suitable for daily use. I've tried ubuntu several times and IMO debian stable is lot more stable with ubuntu.

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just
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Location: Rovaniemi, Finland

Re: New user : some dumb questions

Postby just » 14 Jul 2015 05:15

TheSecretBeerDrinker wrote:...For the moment SolydK works like a charm on my computer, I'll probably keep it if I don't see any bugs coming. Thank you all and thanks to the devs for this great OS :)
Good point.

With time, SolydK became a rescue tool here. When everything else breaks, SolydK continues to work. It allows to recover all computers from any trouble. I have even renamed SolydXK in RescueOS :-|
  • SolydK

    Code: Select all

    just@solydk ~ $ cat /etc/lsb-release
    DISTRIB_ID=SolydXK
    DISTRIB_RELEASE=8
    DISTRIB_CODENAME=solydxk
    DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="SolydK 8 64-bit"
    just@solydk ~ $ 

    Code: Select all

    just@solydk ~ $ hostname
    solydk.net
    just@solydk ~ $ 
  • RescueOS

    Code: Select all

    just@rescueos ~ $ cat /etc/lsb-release
    DISTRIB_ID=RescueOS
    DISTRIB_RELEASE=8
    DISTRIB_CODENAME=rescueos
    DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION="KRescue 8 64-bit"
    just@rescueos ~ $ 

    Code: Select all

    just@rescueos ~ $ hostname
    rescueos.net
    just@rescueos ~ $ 

SolydForEver
Posts: 357
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Re: [resolved] New user : some dumb questions

Postby SolydForEver » 06 Oct 2015 19:16

A question from me about this subject:

What exactly is backport? Is it a repository where stuff is placed which could be installed in the stable release but shouldn't? Where does the name come from?
I installed the main edition of SolydK and try to keep it as it is now. Not easy, I added an extra repository already when I installed Google-Chrome, plus, after uninstalling 4.x, I did install Libreoffice, 5 downloaded directly of their website.
I have used Ubuntu in the past, till Unity came, then I switched to Mint and in the last few years I used the KDE version since I started to like that so much.
Since today it is SolydK for me on the main system after a couple days playing with it in a virtual machine, and so far I like it very much. It's probably caused by not having any MS software running for over 7 years now, and since skipping to SolydK also no *buntu stuff anymore.
This means getting used to doing things in a different way, it means working with older, but therefore more tested, more stable, programs than in the Ubuntu and Mint world where you "always" had the latest version of something.

Please don't forget the question I started with, that's the reason I wrote here.

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Zill
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Location: Lincolnshire, UK

Re: [resolved] New user : some dumb questions

Postby Zill » 06 Oct 2015 19:49

SolydForEver: While your questions are welcome, I do suggest you don't necro-post on threads that have already been answered. Open a new thread, with a meaningful title (rather than the one on this thread!) in the most appropriate forum section and then post full details of your query.

Your question regarding backports can quickly be resolved with the aid of any search engine. Just enter "Debian backports" and you should arrive at http://backports.debian.org/. If you then go to the page entitled "Instructions" you should find the answers to your questions.

You will find that the backports repo is already present in your /etc/apt/sources.list and so you can easily install any packages by using the command shown in the Instructions. Just be aware that such packages should only be installed when absolutely needed as they can reduce the reliability of your SolydXK system.

It seems you are keen to install later software and, as this is your system you are, of course, free to break it! However, if you do actually want a system that is reliable and "just works" then I strongly recommend that you do not install anything from outside the normal Debian Stable repos (possibly plus any essential backported packages).

Otherwise, you could end up with a FrankenDebian system! ;-)


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