Now they want to fork Debian?

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Snap
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Snap » 22 Oct 2014 17:30

That's why i said... tsunami? a few posts above. Forking Debian is not like forking... let's say, puppy Linux. Using an astronomical similitude, It's like a big planet splitting in two. The moons should relocate, some will do while some will go expelled and gone, and new moons will be created.
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Orbmiser » 22 Oct 2014 17:32

Don't think I would stay with any distro that gut-react jumpa to fork. Maybe if user base is vocal and wanting to switch. Then as a distro I would slowly implement a change over after the smoke cleared and the fork showed some stability and long-term support intentions. Instead would rely on the community to implement the fork much like the EE of SolydXK community. Or the different Manjaro Community editions. Then would have something to fall back on if the systemd based became a failed experiment.

I don't see any major distro's willing to invest even more time,labor and headaches on a fork that is new and unproven.
They will stick with what has been decide for good or bad the direction and future of Linux will be systemd period. There is no real debate of changing that. Not to say down the road that systemd will end up being a big pain and end up giving Linux gout and then serious surgery will have to be done. And that backpedaling may be required. Or may evolve into the accepted and proven over time to have been the right decision after all.

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Snap
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Snap » 22 Oct 2014 17:36

I use both Ubuntu and SolydXK so I would be interested in finding out if I will have to work on one sysvinit system and one systemd system. And what that would mean or if it would be just a given thing I don't think about (as it is right now).
Well, I don't see a real problem here. It's like using different Debian, Arch or Slackware based distros, or OpenSuse right now. You have to learn to deal with the different package managers. At this point I have distros using systemd (most of them) and some still on sysvinit. No big deal actually. It takes some time to get used to the "tools", but that's all. Then you'll surely develop your own preferences. In my case I love apt and pacman equally. About init systems I still don't know my preferences.
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby zerozero » 22 Oct 2014 17:39

we probably heard completely different podcasts:
as it was pointed out there (and is also my belief) think about this expression for awhile
[list]FORKING DEBIAN[/list]
1. what are they going to fork?
the whole Project? all the archs and all the software? and rebuild it when need to work with sysv instead of systemd?
seriously?!?
but does anybody has any idea of what that means??

2. or are only going to fork amd64 and i386 and only the software that most easily can be built without systemd (this would theoretically leave the gnome stack out)
so, it's a fork of debian or a subset of the project mother?
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Snap » 22 Oct 2014 18:01

I guess they should know what they're wanting to do, but they're not telling... or haven't found where they talk about it.
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby fleabus » 22 Oct 2014 18:01

Uh.. <ahem> ...

All I see is someone who paid a few bucks for a domain name to start a troll site. "We are...." ?

Who, please?

I think a very large grain of salt is called for.

BTW, I'm not a fan of systemd, or its creators....

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 22 Oct 2014 18:54

@zerozero: Makes me think now why don't they just start their own distro instead of using "fork" to describe their new project? They could base it on Debian and just replace the parts they don't like and put it in their distro, right? Of course you realize I don't know how all that stuff works so that's why I'm wondering why they just don't make another distro. Yes, we have a kazillion and one Linux distros already. But then many like and many dislike the choice/confusion. That's a whole other topic I won't get into here, though. :)

@fleabus: That is basically what Chris kinda touched on in Linux Unplugged, and others weighing in. The "sour grapes" sounding aspect of it possibly going against them as for credability. But who knows maybe they are on to something, and maybe it's a knee-jerk reaction.

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby fleabus » 22 Oct 2014 19:06

RavenLX wrote:I don't know how all that stuff works so that's why I'm wondering why they just don't make another distro.
I've been reading a lot lately, and there are some folks out there experimenting with stuff like that; removing some of the more ridiculous dependencies and what have you. Gives me hope, as this is only the beginning.

I also found this quite interesting:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan. ... o-hah.html

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Snap
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Snap » 22 Oct 2014 19:27

- systemd+sysvinit systems: put these daemons in a separate package and
ensure they are running under both init systems. They do not rely on
a running systemd.
That's the thing. Systemd and sysvinit are switchable init systems per se. You should be able switch from one to the other at first instance, but the way it's packed in Debian now forces Jessie to be systemd exclusive. AFAIK, In wheezy you can still switch them. But I'm afraid it won't be possible for the forthcoming Debian stable release.
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby fleabus » 22 Oct 2014 19:51

Snap wrote:I'm afraid it won't be possible for the forthcoming Debian stable release.
Yup, Jessie is definitely a goner...

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Snap » 22 Oct 2014 19:59

Where controversy is all about. In Debian you can chose anything. Different DEs, WMs. Login managers or not having login managers at all, using X or not, your kernels, your apps, your toolkit, your drivers, your sound server, your architecture... and of course, your init system. For first time something is locked in Debian.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby zerozero » 22 Oct 2014 20:20

Snap wrote:For first time something is locked in Debian.
you have kFreeBSD (it's still debian)
fleabus wrote:Jessie is definitely a goner...
because of systemd? i know how you feel about it but :roll:
Snap wrote:Systemd and sysvinit are switchable init systems per se. You should be able switch from one to the other at first instance, but the way it's packed in Debian now forces Jessie to be systemd exclusive.
but that is not only in debian; AFAIK (correct me if i'm wrong) it's the same in arch or fedora;
it has more to do with the latest software's dependencies on systemd than exactly with a deliberate distro lockin.
fleabus wrote:Uh.. <ahem> ...

All I see is someone who paid a few bucks for a domain name to start a troll site. "We are...." ?

Who, please?

I think a very large grain of salt is called for.

BTW, I'm not a fan of systemd, or its creators....
thanks for putting it so clear 8-)
exactly what i wanted to say!
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Snap
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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Snap » 22 Oct 2014 20:34

zerozero wrote:
Snap wrote:For first time something is locked in Debian.
you have kFreeBSD (it's still debian)
Huh, never heard of it. Debian on a FreeBSD kernel? that would have been a dream made true a few years ago when I was swearing about how Mac OS X was derailing. :lol: Interesting distro in any case.

But... why is this locked? i don't get it.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Deleted User 2764 » 22 Oct 2014 21:26

zerozero wrote:
Snap wrote:Systemd and sysvinit are switchable init systems per se. You should be able switch from one to the other at first instance, but the way it's packed in Debian now forces Jessie to be systemd exclusive.
but that is not only in debian; AFAIK (correct me if i'm wrong) it's the same in arch or fedora;
There's also talk of forking Fedora, too. :roll:

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby kbd » 22 Oct 2014 21:58

I'm with these fork guys in spirit, but if main Debian holds to systemd, adding in the caveat that systemd doesn't completely frack up Debian Stable (some guys using Sid are having issues with systemd I understand), then I'm sticking with Debian Stable even with the systemd apocalypse :-)
There can be no true fork, as someone pointed out above, they would need a new distro pretty much divorced from Debian, maybe starting with current Wheezy packages or something, and use KDE or something else that doesn't need gtk and Gnome. It would probably look nothing like the current Debian Stable, be more like Arch, or the others you need to fix and repair yourself from breaking. I want a Stable OS even if it is with crappy systemd.

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby fleabus » 23 Oct 2014 01:50

zerozero wrote:
fleabus wrote:Jessie is definitely a goner...
because of systemd? i know how you feel about it but :roll:
Yeah, sorry, that statement was rash and uncalled for. What gets me is not systemd itself, but all this stuff that seems aimed at a takeover scenario, and what seems to me to be politically motivated trashing of anything not-systemd.
Snap wrote:Systemd and sysvinit are switchable init systems per se...
Absolutely, z, and I switched back and forth during testing myself.
Remember that fiasco? :lol: http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php? ... 240#p43343
Snap wrote:...it has more to do with the latest software's dependencies on systemd than exactly with a deliberate distro lockin.
This part is what's got me so ticked. It's like "use systemd if you want a fully functional system", and sticking in ridiculous deps everywhere. Sure, it's possible to achieve full functionality without systemd. But I detest these tactics. Straight out of MS.

This issue is still young. Folks are starting to experiment with removing some of the sillier deps. Maybe the packaging thing will get modified some, so that task can get somewhat easier, who knows. There are a lot of people who matter who are really waking up to this now. I'm just a user, and a clueless one at that. As a user my only option is to voice my concerns. Don't mind me, it's just a personal thing. I'm too old and cranky for my own good. :lol:

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby rijnsma » 24 Oct 2014 12:56

I hate to see all efforts to keep Linux small.
Fleabus wrote:
Straight out of MS.
Yes.
KDE, Gnome, MIR, Wayland-talk, Grub, Grub2, Ext3, Ext4, Btrfs, Remastersys-cut etc...
I love Linux and I use it day2day (Solyd, PCLOS, Ubuntu, Mint at the moment) but I'm sorry to say there are times I think of other solutions.... :o
Why damaging Linux?? Too much 'freedom'? Doesn't earn something?

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Arjen Balfoort » 26 Oct 2014 08:15

rijnsma wrote:Why damaging Linux?? Too much 'freedom'? Doesn't earn something?
I really don't think people are willingly trying to damage Linux. These things happen for several reasons. One of those reasons is that it's in the genes of all who live by open source to want to help other people. Of course, the other side of the coin is that there's the natural pig-headedness as well that dictates we have better arguments. I think it's a good thing: it will, eventually, find a new equilibrium when natural selection does its thing.

And don't get me started on the financial complexity concerning open source... ;)


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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby fleabus » 26 Oct 2014 08:50

zerozero wrote:1. what are they going to fork?
the whole Project? all the archs and all the software? and rebuild it when need to work with sysv instead of systemd?
seriously?!?
but does anybody has any idea of what that means??
I actually thought the whole thing was pretty funny. I read somewhere, I think in the history section of the Debian website, that the cost of the man-hours that have gone into creating and maintaining Debian was into the Twenty Billions? Anyway something ridiculously high like that. You'd need a petabuck or two just for infrastructure and support. Pretty ambitious indeed. They're gonna need a ton of money, people, and lotsa free time on their hands... :D
kbd wrote:There can be no true fork...
Agreed. Some of the hotter heads out there may go as far as to create a new distro, something consisting of systemd-free Debian spins, but IMO that's as far as it'll go.

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Re: Now they want to fork Debian?

Postby Nuke » 26 Oct 2014 10:48

Schoelje wrote :-
I really don't think people are willingly trying to damage Linux. These things happen for several reasons. One of those reasons is that it's in the genes of all who live by open source to want to help other people. Of course, the other side of the coin is that there's the natural pig-headedness as well that dictates we have better arguments.
Of course they are not setting out to damage it (but may damage it anyway), but rather they want to play a greater part in it and/or to take it in a direction they (but not necessarily the majority) would prefer. I seriously think that they might even go on to replace the kernel itself, especially as Linus himself seems a little pissed off by the systemd affair http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/05 ... s_dust_up/ and may think this is the time to make an exit from his role.

Perhaps also Red Hat see systemd as a way of making Linux more mainstream, more Windows-like in its workings, with themselves as the Godfather. MS took Windows in yet another direction with Windows 8, pleasing some but angering others and leading to many switching (mainly to Apple, some to Linux) - is that a parallel to learn from?

Fleabus wrote :-
the man-hours that have gone into creating and maintaining Debian was into the Twenty Billions? Anyway something ridiculously high like that. You'd need a petabuck or two just for infrastructure and support. Pretty ambitious indeed.
But presumably this would be a fork from the last non-systemd version of Debian so they would not need to all those man-hours again. It would not be a new OS, it would be a new distro - and they spring up all the time, although in this case with more significant differences than just the wallpaper and default apps. The main problem as I understand it would be the apps that will make calls to systemd in the future. They would need to be re-compiled for (lets call it) Debian-non-systemd, which would therefore need its own repository. It would equivalent to maintaining BSD or Solaris, but with the Linux kernel.

I run Solaris sometimes, just for fun, and find familiar apps there (the Gnome GUI, Firefox, Thunderbird, gedit etc) so someone ports this stuff there in a similar manner.


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