Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

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Christaj
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Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Christaj » 19 Oct 2014 14:08

So can anyone tell me the exact steps to return to using sysvinit instead of systemd.

I have the most recent UP installed. This is linux land right. One should have a choice. But please, I don't need to hear about the merits of systemd.

I am all for doing things the simple and modular way, that's why I applauded xorg for going modular way back, and continuing to do so perhaps, the talk of GCC 5 being modular as well, and now kde 5 for that approach as well. I really believe in having a specific utility or app for doing one thing and doing it well, and all of them working as a whole...

So please, is this possible at this time with Solydxk minus systemd?

kurotsugi
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby kurotsugi » 19 Oct 2014 14:40

theorically it's possible using other init as long as you have systemd-shim and there's no package in your system depends on systemd. the problem is that with the recent systemd update systemd-shim doesn't work well and in most cases leave your system unbootable.

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Snap
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Snap » 19 Oct 2014 15:26

Plus, Debian is moving to systemd. Going back to sysvinit is now only a provisional turnaround that won't last for long.
This likely means that your installation is broken. -Mr Pixbuf.

Image

kurotsugi
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby kurotsugi » 19 Oct 2014 15:34

thankfully it only true for jessie. the next debian might have multiple init. sysvinit will eventually abandoned but systemd won't (and shouldn't) the only init system on linux ecosystem (and debian). http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTgxNjM

openrc is still on early stage but they looks promising as an alternative for systemd :3

Christaj
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Christaj » 19 Oct 2014 17:06

Thanks all for the response. It is as I am fearing to some extent, and for good reason, whether one can see those reasons as reasonable or just unsubstantiated fear.

I applaud debian for doing this. My opinion is that distros and Linux in general is headed in the wrong direction if it uses systemd. I don't want to start a flame war here, so please...

Really it's not about the use of systemd perse, but much rather the lack of choice one is left with. So I do hope debian can steer us in the right direction and be a leader in giving us a choice when it comes to init systems. If you like systemd and you use it, then it's your right and kudos to you, but I deserve a right as well to have the freedom to choose another based on whatever my ideology or beliefs might be. I will have my eyes on openrc and support it where I can.

I will use systemd for the time being, but I'll be honest with you all, I don't trust it nor do I think it will steer linux down the right path. You may or may not understand what I am saying, but that's o.k.

All this has however, left me contemplating Freebsd and such. And yes, it's that serious for me and many others. Again, my choice, and our choice. Respect that, and let's move on to whatever awaits us...

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Orbmiser
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Orbmiser » 19 Oct 2014 19:10

Yep that is the great think about linux is just of matter of finding a distro that fits your ideologies & beliefs. And personally don't have a great knowledge to know if systemd is a good thing or bad thing. Except being a bad thing as requires many especailly admins,sysop,etc.. to give up a long time held tradition of the Unix way.

Personally find that mantra getting old in the teeth. As the Kernel and xorg sure in the hell isn't following the "Unix Philosophy" one bit. I reserve judgment on it till it's been out in the wild for a bit and has time to peculate and brew some more.

And being just a desktop user. Find the whole debate entertaining informative but not leaving me on one side or the other side of the camps. From a user's standpoint I really don't see any valid complaints of hating on systemd using the "Unix Philosophy" mantra. As pointed out can find many components,layer's and sub-systems that don't adhere to that principle. With systemd being just another one of those doesn't apply to the Unix Philosophy.

As many use proprietary drivers for their audio and game playing. Skype,Dropbox,Wine and windows programs to running Windows in a VM. Seems to be farthest from the "Unix Philosopy" one can get.

So I have a tendacy to ask if the "Unix Philosophy" is still valid in the first place?

Roll up your sleeves, we may need to fork Debian.
http://www.reddit.com/r/LinuxActionShow ... rk_debian/

Link at top of thread takes you to the post with their first statement about a need to move away from systemd.
"We are Veteran Unix Admins and we are concerned about what is happening to Debian GNU/Linux to the point of considering a fork of the project."
And comes across to me anyways. As long time raised on Unix way resistance to change and resistance to giving up the way they always did it. Even tho the stance makes it more complicated and harder for WM's & DE developers requires more complexity and work on their end. Where systemd would provide measurable benefits to those developers.

Why systemd is winning the init wars and other things aren't
http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog ... mdWhyItWon
Things that systemd gets right
http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog ... stemdRight

Like I said have no clear cut for or against as long as my desktop and app's just work. But sure whatever is decided won't be the only option to the Linux users. As the Sea of Linux has plethora of Distro's Ships floating by in the Night! ;)

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kurotsugi
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby kurotsugi » 19 Oct 2014 21:07

phylosphical and ideological stuff aside...UNIX philosophy was made to ensure you got a good program
Small is beautiful.
Make each program do one thing well.
Build a prototype as soon as possible.
Choose portability over efficiency.
Store data in flat text files.
Use software leverage to your advantage.
Use shell scripts to increase leverage and portability.
Avoid captive user interfaces.
Make every program a filter.
most complain about systemd is that it is not [just] an init. it designed to be everything on top of linux kernel and fully control your system. it's an ultimate horror for freedom fighter. if you take a look into systemd's services, this is some active services.

Code: Select all

ModemManager.service                        enabled 
NetworkManager-dispatcher.service           enabled 
NetworkManager.service                      enabled 
this is some of the disabled ones

Code: Select all

network-manager.service                     disabled
systemd-networkd-wait-online.service        disabled
systemd-networkd.service                    disabled
the reason why they got disabled is easy. redhat was planning to take over network management (by forcing this feature got enabled on upstream) but lot of user aren't happy with it so that they disable systemd's native network management in recent version. redhat also forcefully merging their products into systemd (the u stuffs is famous for it. upower, udisk, udev). they were an independent program but now they depends on systemd. since wayland is also a product of redhat it won't surprising if systemd and wayland will become inseparable products (in fact, it already did).

I can remember the days when systemd was still on early stage, it was blazing fast and I love it. it's just that redhat seems developed it into wrong way. it got bloated day by day and lots of new bugs comes in every systemd upgrades. the earlier version in debian (<200) was quite stable but with the recent version (215) gives me lots of problem. now, whenever systemd got an upgrade I always wait someone else installed it on his system and see whether if it work not.

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Orbmiser
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Orbmiser » 19 Oct 2014 21:47

Yep there is that and totally agree about RH and their systemd minions. But and is a Big But what we can do about it?

More and More projects are shuttering out the user comminity. It is no longer a We for many projects. Like Conical,Gnome,KDE,eOS,etc.. The mantra today seems "We the Project Leader's Have a Vision" you can accept our vision or move on to something else.

Distro's like SolydXK,Mint,etc.. Thanks to their willingness and asking the community what do they need/want. And seriously listen and interact with user's and molding end product from that. Unlike the flippant responses I have seen from Dev's from Canonical,RH Gnome,etc... and yep flippant responses from systemd dev's as well.

Now seems many distro's are more about "A Package Product" or "Personal/Business Vision" and the user can take it or leave it mentality. Then the earlier days when it was a true collaboration from dev's & user's interacting to come out with a desktop that the majority wanted and could use.

Maybe I'm just becoming too cynical and have to much negative feelings towards some projects/dev's and how they treated the community.
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kbd
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby kbd » 19 Oct 2014 22:12

systemd appears here to stay. I haven't quite figured out what to make of it despite reading numerous articles about it. For me the biggest issue is that no one can seem to explain why Linux needs it so badly, or what real advantage it offers besides perhaps booting up a few seconds faster. I sometimes fear that with Linux anything new or different is preferred no matter what may work best or be the most reliable.

kurotsugi
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby kurotsugi » 19 Oct 2014 22:28

please correct me if I'm wrong. the only DE depends on systemd is gnome3. the rest of linux community is still an independent project, separated from systemd. the only entity forcefully make all linux ecosystem depends on systemd is redhat. linux community was always 'choose what the best for you'. we have lot's of DE, lots of DM, lots of music player, linux was 'create our own system'.

nevertheless, redhat movement isn't about freedom of choice at all. it's not "take it or leave it". it's "take it or you'll ended up with unbootable system". with the merge of 'the u stuff' it's very hard to get a working system without systemd. it's a tirany. when time comes and wayland is replacing X, there won't any freedom left.

these freedom stuff aside...as an end user I won't mind if their work is good. but, as we can learn from microsof*, a tiranical-centralized movement like this will eventually make the user suffer. from the case of recent version of systemd we should learn that the size of systemd have became too big and it becomes more harder to find the bug and fix it. the risk of security breach is also increased when a system got centralized by one piece of program.

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Zill
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Zill » 19 Oct 2014 22:37

kbd sums up my thoughts very well on systemd. I have tried to stay clear of it so far but think it seems to be almost inevitable that it will eventually be adopted by all the Debian distros, warts'n'all. :-(

If the only advantage of systemd is shorter boot times then this is meaningless to me as my machines generally run 24/7/365. The insidious way it seems to worm its way into many different functions of a Linux system seems way over the top for what started life as a "simple" init system and runs counter to the original Linux principles.

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Orbmiser
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Orbmiser » 19 Oct 2014 22:50

Well many of the reasons for systemd advantages are not apparent to the users.
systemd has a strong separation between system-supplied units, which go in /lib/systemd, and sysadmin-supplied units, which go in /etc/systemd. This is very helpful for keeping track of the latter.
you can override a system-supplied unit with a sysadmin-supplied one without changing or removing the system-supplied one.

(Why, you would think that systemd was written by people who understood modern package management.)

what units are enabled in various states is stored in the filesystem in a visible form, not locked up in a magic database somewhere.

you can have units installed without being activated, unlike Upstart.

systemd allows units to shim themselves into the startup order so that they get started before some other unit; you do not have to alter the other unit to enable this (unlike Upstart again).

(systemd is not perfect here; in the general case you can't reorder existing units without editing some of them. But you can do this by overriding the system-supplied unit with your own copy, per above.)

systemd unit configuration files are easy to write and easy to read (cf); they contain almost the minimal information necessary with very little extraneous fluff. They do not involve XML.

systemd handles a lot of annoying infrastructure for you; for example, you do not have to arrange to daemonize programs you run.

systemd starts and restarts services in a consistent and isolated environment, not in whatever your current environment is when you run the start and restart commands.

systemd keeps track of what processes belong to a particular service, so it can both list all the processes that are part of a service and tell you what service a particular process is part of. This is a boon to manageability.

because it actively tracks unit status, conditional restarts are not dangerous; it shares this behavior with any competently implemented active init system.

(SysV init scripts are a passive system, Upstart, Solaris SMF, and systemd are all active ones.)

during boot, systemd reports unit startups as they happen (and reports if they succeeded or failed). You would think that this is a basic feature that everyone has, but no; neither SMF nor Upstart do this.
So who knows down the line we will end up with a more stable easier to manage Linux system?

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Christaj
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Christaj » 19 Oct 2014 22:57

Gnome3 might be the only DE that depends on systemd right now, but it seems that the rate that systemd is being integrated and buried into Linux is growing. It is feared that it will be hard wired into software such that it would be impossible to use anything else to boot, monitor, log or control your system. Kind of reminds me of the "Borg" in Star Trek. Just a joke there :D, but really a serious one.

I will say it again. Linux users, especially us seasoned ones, the ones who have played with Linux since it's early inception and has contributed to it to some extent, whether it be in patches, actual software programming, or just testing for bugs and submitting bug report, just needed a choice in the matter here.

I, and we, though we may distrust systemd, respect that it deserves to exist, be available to, and be used by users, but so should all other open source software. But systemd seems to be taking over full circle. It is eliminating all other init systems and has trash the unix way.

This is unacceptable. Can I please have my choice back. This is how it has started. Exactly what software freedoms will it take next. It is for us users to be eternally vigilent, otherwise one day we will wake up and wonder what exactly happened. Maybe I'm paranoid here, but it is said that paranoia is just a heighten sense of awareness...

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Zill
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Zill » 19 Oct 2014 22:59

Orbmiser wrote:...The mantra today seems "We the Project Leader's Have a Vision" you can accept our vision or move on to something else...
I think you will find that this "mantra" has been around for as long as GNU/Linux itself. ;-)

Individual developers initially created software to meet their own requirements and then released it under a "copyleft" licence, such as the GPL. This allowed other developers to use this software without restriction and so they could build on it to produce yet more software that they then released under similar licencing. The resulting "virtuous circle" of software that was produced would eventually become the GNU/Linux distros that we know and love today. However, it must be remembered that it was primarily developed for (relatively) selfish motives, rather than being driven by the more abstract "end user", who simply used what was being offered under the generous terms of FOSS licencing.

Personally, I am very grateful to all the developers who built our GNU/Linux distros and, as a humble user, I do not feel I have the right to dictate what they work on. Any mechanism that allows users to comment on future FOSS development is simply a bonus IMHO, not a right!

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zerozero
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby zerozero » 19 Oct 2014 23:14

This is unacceptable. Can I please have my choice back.
in GNU-LINUX how many options do you have to replace xorg?
how many options do you have to replace linux?
is your freedom diminished because of that?
bliss of ignorance

Christaj
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Christaj » 19 Oct 2014 23:33

Apparently "resistance is futile", assimilate or die, or rather assimilate and die slowly...

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zerozero
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby zerozero » 20 Oct 2014 00:48

Christaj wrote:Apparently "resistance is futile", assimilate or die, or rather assimilate and die slowly...
i don't know about that :P

i don't like systemd.
- we first met in the end of 2012 and it broke beyond repair a 2years old fully functional install.not good!

- i don't like how with every release it grows and assimilates services and features.
SPOF

to light things up (this is a duplicate) :lol:

Image
bliss of ignorance

rokytnji
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby rokytnji » 20 Oct 2014 01:22

Well, when someone yells at me, "get off my lawn!"

I get off their lawn. (In Texas not doing so can get you killed)

I run SolydX 32 bit with Systemd on one M&A Comapnion Netbook.
I run Salix 14.1 Fluxbox on my other M&A Companion Netbook .
Salix will always use the same init system like Slackware.
Both are twin specs to the point I can swap drives and the Linux system would not know it was on a different netbook.
I know this because I have spare ssd drives with AntiX 13.2 that I have inserted in either netbook at one time or another.

So if Debian, Redhat, who ever say , "take it or leave it".
That is fine and dandy by me.
I was the same way with girls when I was single.
I can do the same with Computer operating systems.

This is how I see folks that yell about systemd.

Since I run both systems. I really can't say one is better than the other or more problematic than
the other. My Oct dist-upgrade on testing went just fine following the excellent instructions on
the Update manager gui window furnished by the team here.

Now to back pedal on my second sentence in the above paragraph.
I can also say systemd has been more of a headache for me on my AntiX hard drive because of custom scripts
that systemd does not interact with. Breaking certain antix control panel functions. Breaking Slim. Breaking lots of stuff.
Incompatibility with older P3 gear.
We are working on that however. Anti does not like systemd either.

Shoot, maybe I'll learn freebsd or openbsd. Though being a old scooter tramp. I doubt if I have the energy
anymore to learn new doggy tricks. My Chromebook seems to be evidence of that.

It's always been a tough world. Oh well. I am just glad it does not "suck to be me".
It could be worse. And will probably be, later.

This systemd thing reminds me when they started putting sensors and computers in motorcycles. So the home user
was locked out of fixing his scooter on a army blanket on the ground. Guess who won?

:ugeek:

Christaj
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby Christaj » 20 Oct 2014 22:16

Like the animation thingy zerozero :D.

For what it's worth I am giving systemd a try out on a limited system, and we'll see where it goes from here. Though like I said I don't trust it one bit. However, given other options, there is where I'll be heading. The old adage about "not putting all your eggs in one basket" still rings true to me...

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ScottQuier
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Re: Remove systemd, return to sysvinit

Postby ScottQuier » 21 Oct 2014 13:06

Have you seen this thread --> http://forums.solydxk.nl/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4902

I would seem they heard you :)
Scott
Quoting zerozero, "The usage of PPA's in debian-based
systems is risky at best and entails serious compatibility
problems; usually it's the best way to destroy an install"


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